26 Nov 2008 @ 9:29 PM
Have you ever heard that old saying, “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is a duck?” Well, I came across an article about a women in Florida who went into an abortion clinic to have an abortion. It failed and the baby was born alive. That is the end, right? Oh no! The “nurse” performing the procedure took the baby and put it in a biohazard bag and poured bleach on it. She then proceeded to the top of the abortion clinic and left the bag, with the baby still in it, to die.
Now I ask you, is there anything about this story that makes sense? First and foremost, that child deserved to live no matter what the mother wanted. The idea that someone can choose to terminate a life because they just don’t want it is murder. Yes, murder. It isn’t that simple, right? Who am I to tell a woman what she can do with her body? What about if she was raped or incest? How about if her health is in danger? Murder, murder, murder, murder. Remember the duck question above? Looks, walks talks like…?
There are many arguments when it comes to abortion. I think they all fall short and the welfare of the baby needs to be first. Through the wonders of modern medicine, they now know what causes pregnancy. If you don’t want a baby, don’t make one. I can think of no greater indication of the state of a society than how we treat our children. That includes the unborn. The nurse that murdered that precious child should be brought to justice and charged with murder.
If anyone is interested, I will post the link for this article later.
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That makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck; I would really like to read the original article if you have the link.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51316
This is one article that talks about it. There are plenty of links to various accounts of what happened. The one commonality of all of the articles, however, is that the baby was born alive at 23 weeks and then murdered. No one has that choice.
Wow, Bryan you really are hungry for some heated discussion. However, you won’t be getting any from me. I’m right there with you on this one. As a mother of five, the very thought of this story literally makes me sick to my stomach. My mind goes back to the joy I felt every time each one of my babies would leap inside of me, even when they were younger than 23 weeks gestation. I can’t help but cry at the thought. I am a firm believer that there is NO excuse for abortion. Every life has a purpose, every life no matter how it was conceived was carefully knit together by God, therefore being destined to live. Abortion happens for one reason, just like all sin, it happens because of selfishness! People are caught up in ME ME ME! I don’t want to raise this baby, I don’t want to deal with a child who may need extra care! It’s all about number 1. Because of the awesome testimony our daughter Serenity has, I have been blessed with the opportunity to pray for other families. Here recently we have witnessed many other miracles because of the power of prayer. One particular story comes to mind. At just (oddly enough) 23 weeks along, a young woman received some devestating news about her unborn child. The doctors told her that because of certain heart defects her child would SURELY die. That was 0% chance, not even a might be. They doubted that the baby would make it to term and even if so, then would definitely be stillborn. However, The family believed for complete healing and people around the world were praying. Every day the doctors were baffled by the fact the baby still thrived. Then the day finally came and not only was the baby born alive, but the doctors who had prepared for the worse, could not find anything wrong. They went home after a healthy normal hospital stay. Now like Serenity, they have an amazing testimony that has touched thousands of people. Just think how horrible would it have been if that mother had not been a God fearing unselfish woman. How horrible would it have been if we had tossed away our daughter. The doctors are not God! They do not know the definite future of any child. They should not be able to determine what babies should or should not be given the opportunity of life. Life begins at conception, anything that causes the body to rid itself of that life, is murder! Abortion is not a choice, it actually is just the opposite, for it removes ALL possiblity of choice for survival!
“For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14
“Listen to me, all of you in far-off lands! The Lord called me before my birth; from within the womb He called me by name. He said to me, You are my servant, Israel, and YOU WILL BRING ME GLORY.” Isaiah 49:1,3
Every soul has been given a purpose! Every baby was called by God while yet still in their mother’s womb. How sad to think about all those babies whose life ended way too soon. Who might they have become if only given a chance? I once heard a quote, “Where is the cure for cancer? It lay within the heart of an aborted child.” It definitely makes you stop and think!
“Heated” is a great word…perhaps understated, but a great word never the less. I think if we would stop worrying about what others thought of us and spoke the truth, our world would change. Now is not the time to be silent. Now is not the time to sit. Now is not the time for fancy words and evasive discourse. Stand up and speak, for our future depends on it. If we don’t speak for the children, who does?
You know honey, I am right there with you! I got your back babe! I can't even fathom the invetro process because they make multiple embryos because they aren't sure how many will actually take conception, but then in the State of RI they only allow two embryos to be inserted in the womb. What do they do with the other thriving embryos? They just destroy them. Kill them. They does them out with the trash!
No matter at what stage, killing any human being, child, or infant it still murder. Taking a human mistake, but apparently God's desire, bleaching it & killing it,…first degree murder! 100% premeditated.
This was clearly murder, but I am not really concerned about whether those responsible will face the death penalty. In most medical situations, there is standard protocol to be followed. If a professional does not follow the procedure established by their professional organization, they can be liable and lose their license. I doubt that a murder charge would stick, but if those responsible did not follow proper procedure for dealing with the infant, they should lose their accreditation. I believe that if doctors, nurses, etc. that perform these procedures feared losing their income stream and professional opportunities, that situations like this would be less likely to occur. Also, if there is currently minimal to zero legal protection for new-born children, I would like to see this used as impetus to institute such procedures.
Secondly, I am more distraught by the fact that the moral climate of our nation has deteriorated to the point that a competent, intelligent professional would instinctively destroy, rather than protect, innocent life. It seems that the nurse(s)’ first instinct was to remove an undesirable inconvenience rather than recognize a human life. Tragic.
I find a couple of your comments interesting but most importantly your first, troubling:
If there isn’t a common understanding of what a “child” is, how do you presume this instance to be used as an impetus to get legislation to protect them. The most common understanding in the Pro-Life camp is that life begins at conception. The opposite camp believes that it begins at various points of viability (this point in time rotates as they have no moral foundation to there position).
Secondly, the people of America constantly try to pass legislation to protect unborn children. “Enlightened” judges who are obviously smarter than us poor commoners, have seen fit to overturn us silly little voters and rule the results unconstitutional.
I guess my point is that before we delve into the legalistic arguments of medical juris prudence, and I agree there is a lot, lets assume that the unborn children are worth protecting and those that harm them should be punished, not just stripped of some “accreditation.
First I just want to add that the whole, “its not a baby” line is just an excuse and a weak one at that. As a high risk pregnacy patient five times going, I had to be monitored very early and even after only a few weeks of gestation they were able to locate a heartbeat. What is the definition of life? If you ask me a beating heart pretty much sums it up! Life begins at conception.
Bottom line: This is purely a case of a darkened heart, or lack thereof! The fact that these people can perform this procedure daily and never feel any remorse is what really gets me. The worst part is its not just in this branch of the medical field. There was a time ( a long time ago) when a doctor or nurse was a noble profession. Only the most compassionate people entered into the medical field. Now it’s really a miracle of God to find a doctor that actually cares about their patients. I actually had the peditrician who saw me most of my life, then for the first several years of my children’s life, who I never missed a copayment to, actually deny my son care when he was running a 103 degree fever because of an insurance glitch. Needless to say we no longer see that particular doctor. It’s really sad, but It’s all about MONEY! They no longer care about the well being of others, now it’s just a job, nothing more. The people they work on are no more important than the models they studied. Like I said before our Nation is now based on one issue, Selfishness! People are lacking a conscience!! Yes I believe this was murder!! Yes I believe they should be punished for their crime! But more importantly I think we should really get down to the root of the problem! The moral fiber of our country is declining because we have chosen to sit back and allow God to be removed from our midst. Without the Holy Spirit to bring about conviction, the hearts of these people WILL NOT change, no matter how harshly they are punished! We definitely need to voice our opinion!!! We definitely need to stand up for what is right and not sit by idly and watch these innocent babies being slaughtered! But more importantly we need to PRAY!! We need to pray for a mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit for Only God can change the hearts of people! My heart crys out for these murderers as well! To become so completely heartless, how far have they fallen from the Grace of God and how many more are following quickly behind them! What kind of world are my children heading for? It’s scary! Stricker laws may help with the horror of abortion, which is a great start and a definite NEED BE, however without the change of their hearts, people will only find other ways to be cruel or I’ll just say it, pure evil! Only God can soften a hardened heart which takes repentence and repentence takes conviction, the Holy Spirit brings conviction and that takes PRAYER!
Just a couple of thoughts:
1) New borns are protected by the same laws that protect us all from being murdered. Once the procedure has failed and the baby has been born–it’s murder, legally, as defined. It’s no different than if I walked into a room immediately following the failed procedure, saw nothing but a baby and killed it. I’d be doing hard time at a minimum. So, they are protected in actuality, but possibly not in practice (lack of political will to enforce).
2) I don’t know that going down the road of “professional organizational standards and procedures” is really much of an argument. The German SS and the guards at (pick your favorite WWII concentration camp) had a professional organization with standards and procedures for carrying out murder, but the court in Nuremburg wasn’t buying it (rightly so).
3) As a note, everyone is pro-choice. Some are just taught to make that choice at a responsible point instead of waiting until it gets to a life or death decision. Only those never given a choice (rape), or those with a more complex choice (life of the mother) should cut a little slack on the timing of their choice.
Those who know me would probably tell you that I am not firmly in either camp on this subject, but I believe in 3 truths:
1) If a baby survives the process and is born, it gets the benefit of the doubt. Like not dying from capital punishment–chalk it up to act of God and treat it like the human being it is.
2) There was only one recorded case of immaculate conception,thus it took two to put it there. If either of them wants the baby it should be born and the unwanting parent relieved of all parental rights and responsibilities.
3)The Constitution does not give the federal government the authority to decide. This is well outside their pervue and thus falls to the Tenth Amendment. Therefore, this is a state by state decision on how to legislate, regulate, or otherwise deal with the issue.
Who are we to say that one person should be cut more slack when it comes to the possiblity of dying. Is one life more precious than another?
The life of the mother – I am no stranger to medical “certainties” that somehow become medical mysteries. As a mother of five dianosed with certain heart conditons, I too have been enlighten on the great possiblity of not making it through child birth. Yet here I stand! Worse comes to worse, what more noble action is there than for a mother to give her own life for her child? I would proudly do it in a heart beat! Any mother worthy of the name would do the same! For a woman to place her life before that of her own flesh and blood, should she even be called mother?
Rape – Conception brings forth life no matter how it comes about. Every life has a purpose!!! Evil in this world there is in abundance! However, God has promised that He will turn ALL things around for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose!(Romans 8:28) Sometimes the greatest evils can become our greatest blessings! And What greater blessing than that of new life?
I find no room for “slack” of any kind on this issue! Life will always be life and death will always be death. No man should be able to determine what innocent life lives and dies!
Burke fam,
I don’t necessarily disagree with you on point, but I believe that when the mother’s life is in true danger, she alone should be allowed to decide. I also believe rape cases did not give her the opportunity to make a responsible decision, thus she alone should get to decide. All other cases in my book require both progenitors to have equal weight in the decision and if they BOTH decide, for whatever reason, to terminate the pregnancy, then so be it.
There are a lot of children in awfully bad situations because they were brought into the world and it turned out no one wanted to care for them properly. They generally end up taking another life or at least ending up in the legal system. There is a viable argument that the legalization of abortion following Roe vs. Wade actually was the largest single contributing factor to the drop in crime rates in the 80′s and 90′s. And realistically, there is probably more than a kernalof truth to that perspective.
With the understanding there are worse fates than death, and realizing that the instances of both prospective parents agreeing to abort it are going to be significantly less than today’s standard, I’m ok with allowing those two exceptions.
As for unwanted children turning out to be blessings. It no doubt happens. Churchill is a great example. My guess is, statistically speaking, for every Churchill that was never born there is probably one Hitler that was never born either. (Insert your favorite nature versus nurture debate here.)
Lastly, one lesson we need to learn from the left is that incrementalism works. Generally, it works because we have raised a couple of generations too self-absorbed to respond to anything that doesn’t seem like an immediate, short-term, personal threat. Trying to whole-sale outlaw something as controvesial as abortion is too stark of a change in today’s society and will awaken that mass of disinterested citizens.
That’s why I think you can make significant progress by addressing the policy aspects. Is it worth allowing a million more abortions to be performed as birth control so you can stand on the argument that rape victims are carrying babies, too? When you can probably sell the policy fairness argument in terms of father’s rights and moral rights, and go for the every-life-is-a-life argument down the road.
Wordwelder,
I definitely have a few problems with the idea of two parents agreeing on abortion making it all right!
From my stand point, that’s the same as saying if both parents decide they want their child dead after birth, (because they were the one’s that made the child therefore they are the ones who should decide,) than so be it! Just Because a baby is still inside the womb does by no means change the fact that it’s still a life! They are forever removing the baby’s choice to live! There are three to consider not just two.
No one can ever deny the fact that this world contains alot of irresponsible and evil people, but giving the okay for the slaughter of innocent life is only Adding to the problem.
As any parent knows, when it comes to teaching your children, you have to stand firm on what is right and wrong. If you tell them do not touch Mommy’s iron because it’s hot, then the next day you say it’s okay because it’s unplugged. One day they are going to grab that iron when it’s hot. Why? Because they were confused about what is right and wrong. The same goes for our society. The moral fiber of our nation has fallen to merely nothing, not because of one major crash, but because of the little mistakes leading to a continual downward spiral. We have raised a generation tainted with grey areas. Right, wrong, right, wrong. We have raised them to believe that right is defined by whatever is in their own best interest at the time, regardless of how it effects others.Not to mention the fact that what seems good now isn’t always what’s best for later. Most of the time, abortion doesn’t just destroy the life of the unborn child, it also destroys the mother’s life as well. There is a reason why a high percentage of woman regret their decision later! (Thank God they do, when the remorse subsides is when we need to worry) Their conscience knows its wrong! They feel remorse! Then people pat them on the back and say, you made the right decision,or it was for the best” LIE!! They didn’t make the right decision and their conscience knows it, but after awhile that conscience becomes seared and we wake up with a demoralized, hardened generation. We can sit and sugar coat it all day long but it doesn’t change the fact that its still WRONG!
A woman was created with an instinct to protect her child! That is who she is, it’s in her nature. Therefore, It doesn’t matter how set her mind is at the time, afterward every woman with a heart is going feel guilty for the rest of her life. For it goes against everything she was created to be. If we want to do whats best for all parties, we should do everything we can to stop ALL abortions! And when we fail and a woman begins to feel remorse, we do not pat her on the back and say, “you made the right decision” Instead we honestly say, “Yeah you messed up! You made a HUGE mistake, but the good news is, we have ALL fallen short of the Glory of God and Praise be to God that there is forgiveness for us all!” This is what is going to make a difference; Being direct, honest, and showing love!
Politically, I do agree that its a step by step process! A radical change is not going to happen over night! We do need to unite on the greater issues that we agree on and put a stop to all the idle uses of abortion first! We can agree to disagree for NOW on the specific details! However, I refuse to be “Ok” about allowing any exceptions! A stepping stone it may be but by far not the end of the road.
Burke Fam,
I understand what you are saying, but disagree with you on a few small points.
First, right and wrong are moral judgements that are taught. This is a nurture process, not a nature process. As a result, your definition–no matter how convinced you are of it–is just that YOUR definition. That makes imposing it on others much more difficult. That isn’t to say that we can’t agree on some things we all think are wrong and all think are right, but once you get into some specific areas it does become a matter of perspective.
Second, teaching a child that touching an iron is wrong is wholely inaccurate. The result of that teaching will be wrinkled clothes, because touching of irons is bad. Perhaps a better lesson is something a little more useful like, choices have consequences. If you choose to touch the iron, you may well get burned or, if you act intelligently and responsibly you may just get wrinkle-free clothing.
Lastly, we are not actually as far apart on many goals as it may appear. I prefer to achieve the same results by putting process in place that allows people to make the “right” decision on their own, most of the time. Then they get to be responsible for their actions AND we get the actions we would like for them to undertake. Win-win in my book. As you read some things I write (over time) you’ll see me take this approach with most things. People will choose the right answer when its easy and when they know what it is…so show them what it is, help them understand why that’s a good choice, then design the system to be easy to use to get the desired result.
Though I am indeed 100% Pro-Life, it is because I am a believer who is blessed with a great deal of inner strength. However,…
A friend at the house the other day threw in a scenario that I didn't fully understand, but the point was that a man & wife were carjacked at gun point. While one man held a gun to the husband's head, the other raped his wife in the backseat, while the husband was forced to watched.
Though I have no idea why in the hell he even gave up posession of his car when he had the bigger piece of machinery & a gas pedal. Personally, I would have ran that red light & rammed it to hit them with something. Sure in the movies they can hang on, but in reality they can't.
Also, there is the morning after pill, when taken promptly & properly, it "PREVENTS" an embryo from forming. This Morning After pill is becoming more & more easily available just for incodents like the aforementioned.
There are so many things a responsible person can do to prevent the beginning of a life that does not require the murder of a child, for example abstence. Just close your legs already! Women really forget how much power they have.
If the aforementioned scenario had happened to me, and I had gotten pregnant because my brain was too mudled to think clearly in the first place, I would carry the child. For me, my belief, God, even in the mimst of all that vial ugliness He created a child. He had an extrememe purpose for that child.
"How?" you ask. Because what are the odds that I was ovulating at the extra right moement to get pregnant when I was raped? God.
However, I clearly understand that there are so many individuals out there that do not share my faith in God, or my beliefs. There are also millions of individuals out there that are not strong enough to endure such an experience, birth a child, & raise it properly.
You might argue that there is still adoption. I agree. But these people who don't have the inner strenght could & would ultimately destruct. Even if they made it through the pregnancy, they would look at that child the rest of their lives with slight resentment.
So in these extremely rare incidents (i.e. date rape drugs where you can't remember if you were raped & often times don't feel like it since you were not in control of your body to participate, etc.), an abortion may be the only option to save the already living life from itself.
I would still argue that may that was God's paln for them. To bring a great child with a great purpose into this world & nothing more, but again that is my faith.
I agree. We can't make an absolute, but we sure can make it extrodinary. We need to make laws stricter (i.e. no more children under 18 allowed to get an abortion without telling their parents; no longer able to get an abortion without telling the father, etc.) If we can heavily regulate air planes & airlines once they are up in the air, we should not have a problem getting this regulated & under control.
Abortion should not be used as birth control or a way of getting out of something too hard to imagine.
Giving birth is the easy part. It is the raising of these children that is hard.
I strongly disagree with the nature vs nurture notion!
God has created us in His image and therefore I believe we are all born with the instinct to know what is right and wrong! Nurturing or lack thereof will either help further develop that instict, distort it or destroy it! God’s desire is for us to live eternity with Him! He always wants what is best for our mind, body and soul. He is not going to start us out on a path that is uncertain in direction. We have our own natural GPS placed within each heart for protection. That instinct will lead us down a blessed path to His throne when we choose to tune it properly! We choose the direction we take but the right path is always there! It’s not easy, but its always there!
Also the iron example was a quick observation off the top of my head, concerning a child who is far too young to understand the benefit of wrinkle free clothes! A baby is not going to understand consequences when explained to them. Teaching is a step by step process that furthers as they grow. Instinct is a different story. Just as I mentioned before, We did not get like this over night! Just like a woman considering abortion, in her heart she may feel that it’s wrong yet society tells her it’s okay, she finds herself in a difficult situation, so therefore she convinces herself that it’s ok! Then later the instinct God has instilled of knowing right from wrong kicks in again and she feels remorse!
Another example, A very young boy lived with parents who were compulsive liars. This was the way he was raised, so therefore by your view should have thought it natural. But yet the first time he lied he immediatly felt guilty about it and made the decision to make it right by telling the truth, in turn exposing his parents in a lie and therefore causing him rebuke. He continue to hear those around him lie, after a while he began to assume he was wrong. Mommy and Daddy do it therefore it must be right. So he followed their example and began to lie all the time, with every lie he told the guilt lessened until one day he no longer felt guilty. It wasn’t until he made the decision to serve Christ that conviction returned! Since then he stopped lying!
Conception is the very breath of God breathed into us. His spirit knows right from wrong! It’s not until the free will choices that we make or those that raise us make, does instinct become clouded! Wrong is defined by the things that ultimately could (without repentence) darken our hearts and lead to our destruction, physical or spiritual, spiritual the foremost!
OK Ladies,
Let me see if I can address a few of your points.
For Amy:
I agree there are several things that can be used to prevent conception that it would alleviate many of the cases which now utilize abortion. And I agree that making it an extraordinary procedure is also a worthy goal.
I do, however, have issue with further regulations being imposed on people. I’m a small-government kind of guy. I think the entire issue must be left to each state to make up its mind. This is not a federal issue, nor should it be. Some will say that leaves the door open for fifty separate laws. To that I say, ok, not that big of a deal really. Sales taxes are left to the states and we have essentially 50 individual laws on that issue and we seem to be ok.
The federal government is too coersive and has an immense power which is too easily misused to allow them anymore latitude in strong-arming the People without Constitutional authority. This definitely falls under the 10th Amendment. And each state should be left to its own decision.
For Burke Fam:
I appreciate, more than you can know, your passion and strength of belief. And while I would give my last breath to defend your right to believe it and express it, I disagree with the idea of imposing belief structures in the form of laws that are not overwhelmingly shared amongst nearly all the people. While this nation was founded on Christian principles and its laws are founded on Christian principles, it is not, technically (read as “Constitutionally”) a Christian nation, per se, nor can it be in accordance with the Constitution. (I’m sure you understand that we can be a nation of Christians without being a Christian nation.)
Also, the nature vs. nurture agrument, even in your amended example is still very much valid.
While I am not familiar with the specific example you cite, even from your retelling of it I can see the boy did react to the nurturing exactly as one would expect. He also reacted to external input from society which was contradictory to his learned behavior and caused him to question. You see this as God having put the knowledge of right and wrong in each of us. I see it a bit more pragmatically. (Let me save us both a few lines and say I have considered God provided the societal input to show the boy lying was wrong and allow him to make a better choice–either way the mechanism was nurture not nature.)
If you believe we are all born with the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong as defined by the Bible (let’s use your Bible for the sake of arguement) and God wants only the best for us in mind, body, and spirit….and, He wants us all to meet at his house when our Earthly journey is over–then we should inherently make the right decisions, know the right choice, and never be tempted or tested. Additionally, everyone would inherently believe the same thing, all of us from birth, yet we don’t. Now, I’m not saying you’re wrong…I’m just saying your thesis needs a little refinement.
You entioned that the woman in our discussion knows in her heart it is the wrong thing to do. I find that to be a bold statement. One of the greatest mistakes I continually make (because I have to slow down and force myself to remember) I can not specifically know what people are thinking or feeling. Not everyone is thinks as I do nor feels what I feel. I belive you know in your heart it is the wrong decision, but I don’t think for a minute that every women knows that or feels that.
Last thought: while I am not the spiritual person you are, I am thankful for you and people like you.
EEEK! i couldn’t even get past the Nation of Christians vs Christians Nation comment! The thought scares me silly. For sure God’s grace would carry each indiviual Christian through. However, God works in way of authority! Whatever our nation’s covering is, that’s what we would be under. Whether it be receiving all of God’s abundant blessings or taken out of His hedge of protection. Our Nation is our headcovering and all those under it are affected by what kind of covering it is. The Bible says that it is better to never know God than to have known Him and then fall away. We have always been a Christian Nation, we turn our backs on Him now and we will be in for a World of bad things to follow. Which I believe will come! Hopefully not before our Lord returns for His faithful servants!
Also Satan has always been here to tempt us! The bible says “Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8). That is what he does, he prowls around constantly tempting us in hope that we will fall into his trap.
God has given us free will, that’s how Satan was allowed into our world to begin with. Adam and Eve handed over their birthright to him through disobedience. God instilled right within us upon creation but while on this earth, we will always be tempted and we will always have the free will to choose.
Oh g one more thing,
Thank you for appreciating and respecting my faith. Even if you don’t argee with me at least it’s nice to know we can have a discussion without mockery or ridicule!